How little can I eat?

[nmonaco]

 Targets

 

76%

TARGETS

 

159%

Fiber

 

226%

Iron

 

109%

Calcium

 

1010%

Vit.A

 

121%

Vit.C

 

186%

Vit.B12

 

116%

folate

 

 

These are my readings with only 656 calories eaten. 

 

Does this mean I could stop eating now and be close enough to optimal nutrient intake for the day? Or are the other nutrients that are not listed in the main green circle readout of cronometer necessary?

 

My goal is longevity and a reduced body fat number - I am currently at about 19% and would like closer to 15%

 

Thank you

[mccoy]

nmonaco, the number I see you posted are relative only to the nutrients belonging to the main group you selected. To elucidate better, I'm posting an image of the whole nutrients ensemble which you should check. Besides vitamins and minerals, you should check essential amminoacids, omega 3s, omega 9s, fibers you have already posted, saturated fats some like to minimize, others like to minimize sugars and carbs in general.

 

 

To post the above I used the snipping tool available in windows, saved the picture, then used the 'attach files' functionality in the forum, at last clicking 'add to post' to locate the picture exactly where I want. It si easy to reach 100% of all when you eat 2300 kCal.

 

I'd be curious to see if you were able to reach 100% of most nutrients with only 650 kCal.

 

Pls remind that fats (except n-3, n-6) do not have a minimum threshold (you can eat very low amounts), carbs do not have that as well (you can eat very low amounts). Whereas it's vital that you reach 100% of your amminoacids RDA (although that's a number which is not the same for all people).

[drewab]

656 calories is not sustainable long term, unless you have dwarfism or something. Short time it could be done as part of a fasting mimetic diet, but in no way is it safe long term. It would be dangerous - your muscle mass and bone mass would just waste away, and you would end up in eating disorder land.

 

I too would be curious to see exactly what you ate to come up with those numbers. 

[Burak]

One of the most all round nutrient dense food I know is green leaf lettuce. If you eat 650 cal. of green leaf lettuce a day, you will probably not develop nutrient deficiencies before becoming living skeleton, so it is not advised.

[nmonaco]

Thanks for the replies- I was not really thinking of eating that little over long term - just curious about the limits.

 

What I had eaten that day was the following:

 

1 whole egg

3 egg whites

2 oz smoked salmon

7-9 oz steamed spinach

1 Orange

 

25 grape tomatoes

4 carrots

12 almonds

3 tbsp pumpkin seeds 

 

This comes out to 643 cal with 75% of targets met. By noon.

 

I figure I could get to 100% on all nutrients with a little targeted supplementation or a few more targeted calories

[mccoy]

nmonaco, not a bad ovo-pescetarian regime, just few enough proteins that guys round here cannot object with high IGF-1 and stuff!

 

It seems that you're just about all right as far as essential amminos go, and that's a first necessary condition which has been met.

 

By adding more undressed micronutrient-dense vegetables like lettuce, kale, some crucifera mushrooms and so on, you might reach 100% requirement for most nutrients with 900 or 1000 kCal probably. This may be a reasonable lower bound limit for that, barring exceptionally reasoned fine tuning which I too would be curious to carry out. 

 

Omega 3's are soon reached by adding one tbs ground flaxseed or chia seeds, at the expense of a few calories. And a few more nuts or seeds for n-6

I'd alternate fish and eggs, throwing in some nonfat dairy products or pea protein powder, or seitan (gluten proteins).

 

Last but not least, like guys in this forum have so rightly pointed out to me (I was missing this important point): best to add as many as possible protective phytonutrients, found in fruit skins, nuts, EVOO, legumes, seeds & nuts, turmeric, mushrooms, cacao, green tea, hot chili, garlic, onion, spices and so on, even a little amount will add up to a significant protective effect.

[nmonaco]

Thank you mccoy - as ever - your insights are greatly appreciated!

[mccoy]

You're welcome nmonaco, pls feel free to post examples of your daily regimen whenever you wish 

[nmonaco]

Thank you for your interest and assistance - I am hungry for guidance (pardon the pun). 

 

Here is my latest today so far - I am amazed how close I can get to 100% in just one well- planned meal (thanks for the tip about flax and chia seeds!)

 

 

 

[nmonaco]

And here I am after a light lunch at 90% and less than 1000cal!

 

 

I think I can get close to 100% with some strategic eating and the multivitamin, calcium supplement, and Vit D supplement closing in the gaps.

 

Thanks again for the advice and feel free to comment/suggest any thoughts you might have on my progress.

 

 

Something a little puzzling - I am not losing much weight. I have been CRON for about 3 weeks and have lost only 2 -3 lbs. Is this a good rate? I am in it for the long term for longevity, but also to trim body fat. Plus I strength train 3-4 times a week for about an hour a session.

[Thomas G]

Hi nmonaco,

 

It looks like you are getting most of your nutrition from your supplements, and not from the meal itself. Try going to the trends tab in Cronometer and then choose the full report tab and unclick "include supplements" to see a more realistic picture of just how nutrient rich these meals actually are.

 

The goal is not to hit 100% on everything eating as little as you can. You could take a multivitamin and eat a candy bar and a bag of chips and still hit 100% on most things.

 

It would be fun to maximize your nutrition for as few calories as possible by designing really healthful meals. But in order to do that you're going to need to eat upwards of 1500 to 1800 calories of real food. That would be a much better strategy than trying to eat as few calories as possible and popping some pills.

 

You can search the forums for all kinds of info on supplements and the science behind getting nutrients from real food vs. getting them from supplements (tl;dr: most of the nutrients in your pills are just going to pass right through you without being absorbed. For most people a multivitamin is worthless). Or you could watch this handy four minute video from Dr. Greger (tl;dr food is better than pills).

 

For some reason our bodies evolved to access these nutrients and minerals in the form of real whole foods. A reductionist approach doesn't work. You can take a vitamin C pill and the vitamin C will not actually get to any of your bodies cells. But eat one Indian Gooseberry and your body will get a ton of vitamin C.

 

If you really want to do a deep dive into supplements, Michael Rae wrote this post that goes into great detail.

 

Another key thing to keep in mind is that we shouldn't obsess about these RDA. Michael's post does a good job of showing how for most of these it is just a matter of avoiding deficiency, rather than maximizing health, and there is no standard guideline for what optimal levels should ideally be. That's why on a typical day I'm not trying to hit 100% of vitamin A, I'm aiming more for 1000-2000% or more. But of course in other areas, like salt, these RDAs are maximums that we should try to stay under.

 

I personally only take a B12 and a D3 supplement (although I might adjust in the future) and eat around 1800 kcal a day.

 

I'm also concerned about your desire to eat as little as possible. It's not a good idea to lose too much weight too quickly. The main reason I keep track of my weight is to make sure I'm not going too fast (which can be hard to do). Dean has a nice post where he tracked down the science behind the oft repeated warning that our fat stores toxins and that losing too much fat too quickly can actually flood your body with these toxins. Better to aim for a pound a week or a half pound a week.

[nmonaco]

Thanks for that reply Thomas and for the tip re supplements - My post about "how little can I eat" was mostly me trying to understand the limits and goals of CRON. Thank you for clarifying that.

 

My intention on the supplement side was to fill in the missing deficiencies. When I subtract the vitamins from my totals today, however, I drop from 92% fulfilled goals to only 84% - A significant drop indeed but I'd say most of my nutrients seem to be coming from foods.

 

Thank you also for the links and clarifications on the RDA percentages. I had been wondering about overages - I am already at 1200% Vitamin A with just my breakfast of eggs, spinach, mushrooms, salmon, chia and flax seeds, an orange and some almonds. As for the total I am coming in at about 1500 a day now very comfortably.

 

Do you think it makes sense to try for the 100%+ from whole foods and also take the supplements as a "it can't hurt" bonus - as long as most of the nutrients come from foods?

[Thomas G]

I don't have the source handy, but there have been some studies that seem to show taking a multivitamin with food can actually limit the absorption of all vitamins and minerals, even the ones you are getting from food. Still I don't think it would hurt much. People on this forum seem to have a range of opinions about the role of supplements. Personally I'm a minimalist. I take what I absolutely need like B12 and D3. I might need a zinc supplement as well but I'm currently trying to research that.

 

Cronometer also lets you set a weight goal. You can choose to either maintain your weight, gain or lose weight at various rates. If you set Cronometer to lose weight at, say one pound a week, it will tell you how many calories you should be eating to hit that target. I would use that target to determine if you are eating too little.

[mccoy]

nmonaco, I agree with thomas but he already advised you that opinions on supplements are pretty different among nutritionists. Here is my advise in general (re. supplements, I'd first wait to fine-tune your regimen, then add the needed supplements, multivitamins only twice a week if needed).

 

• Your weightloss rate is pretty good, 1 kg a month makes 12 kg a year (26.4 pounds).
• You should measure your weight daily and plot it. Also you should measure weekly waist, thighs, biceps and chest, so that you have an idea of the location of weight losses and gains. You might not be loosing much weight if you are gaining muscle mass.
• If 2500 kCal is you theoretical need, I would not eat below 1500-1800 kCal to start up with. I would monitor the above parameters for a few weeks and then adjust accordingly. Your theoretical need may be in reality higher or lower, that's a statistical figure, affected by individual variability
• Strenght training is very good but sure you are not going to gain muscle mass on the long term in a context of energy deficit (AMP-kinase is activated, which activates TSC which inhibits mTORc1 in the skeletal muscles). Although you are sure preventing a significant loss. 
• You are maybe eating too many animal proteins and this is reflected by the pretty high methionine and leucine values. That would be great for MPS = muscle protein synthesis (although IGF-1 hence methionine is not really necessary) but then you'd need an higher energy intake.
• Balancing CR and MPS is pretty hard, not impossible but that is the topic for another thread (I wrote something on another thread).
• I suggest that you alternate between animal and vegetable proteins (some good lowfat sources are tofu, seitan, quorn, mushrooms, powdered hemp or pea proteins)
• I suggest that you increase the amount of nutritionally dense, low-calories vegetables, especially those suggested by Dr. Joel Furhman

 

With a reasonable time, with patience, you might come up with a balanced CR regimen and at the same time loose the unwanted bodyfat and acquire a rugged, ripped muscular appearance. 

[mccoy]

An example of daily bodyweight plot (mine). I'm still trying to figure out my zero-loss caloric threshold with my present activity level, but it might be close to 2400 kCal, since now I'm on a slightly declining trend. Such a plot may even be visually correlated to a daily caloric intake plot (which maybe I'm going to do in future). 

 

[mccoy]

Re. supplements. Since, as I've written in another thread, I'm thru reading Dr. Fuhrman's 'superimmunty', in that book he suggests to avoid large doses of supplements and especially vitamin A and folic acid, copper, iron.